Torture is the deliberate infliction of severe pain and suffering on an individual. It is used to obtain information, to punish, to intimidate or force compliance, or even for pleasure. Torture is as old as mankind. Most of the available records regarding warfare, religion, and political history at some point discuss it.
Torture to obtain information. This is probably the greatest area of controversy because such torture leaves a degree of uncertainty as to truthfulness. Essentially, without alternative verification, the information obtain has to be considered suspect. (The “torture” of waterboarding leaves no permanent physical scars and fear rather than severe pain is used. Death is not a desired outcome.)
Torture to punish. This type of torture often leaves long-term physical and psychological scars (if not death). For example, amputation is a physical reminder that worse can be inflicted. It lasts for a lifetime, as there is no reanimation of the lost or damaged body part. (Al Queda has a torture manual that is available online. It appears that punishment is the main purpose for its recommended torture methods. However, a painful death or painful information gathering are viable outcomes as well.)
To intimidate or force compliance. Not only can the individual be tortured but torture can be extended to family, friends and communities. It is difficult in the extreme to suffer the deprivation of torture, and also to see one’s family or innocents in great pain. (ISIS often takes a community leader, puts him in front of a crowd, and then visits unspeakable horrors and death on him. The intimidation that results can lead to compliant actions similar to the Stockholm Syndrome where the victims trust and even ally themselves with their torturers.)
For pleasure. Debauchery is not simply relegated to sexual perversion. Some individuals enjoy the pain of others, and unusual forms of torture leading to insanity and death have been created to satiate this perversion. (The Chinese Water torture involves single drops of water dripped slowly on a torture victim’s forehead. Over time, the restrained individual is driven stark raving made by the trip hammer effect of the tiny drops.)
Torture is most effective when the desired outcome is re-enforced by permanent physical and psychological effects, or demonstrably gruesome death. It is least certain in effectiveness when information is the desired outcome. Torture has rightfully and lawfully been condemned around the world, and no nation openly advocates it usage. (The United Nations Convention against Torture is an international human rights treaty that aims to prevent torture and other acts of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.)
29 comments
As someone who has actually interrogated enemy prisoners on the battlefield in order to get information from them, I’d like to add my 2 cents.
Of the above categories, I think only “torture to obtain information” is in consideration by Americans. As stated, you don’t know what you don’t know so torture is ineffective in that you can’t reliably believe the information because people will logically lie to stop the torture. If they truly don’t know the information you want, and you are torturing them on the assumption that they do know, then you will get garbage information in order to cease the pain.
The more difficult scenario is when you know the prisoner has valuable information, a situation which seemed more Hollywood-esque before 9/11. If you know a prisoner has information that can be used to save other lives, then is torture justifiable? That is a very difficult question to answer. It is easy to say no, it never is. But what if the attack will kill 100 people or 1,000 or more? Are not their lives worth more than that prisoner’s pain?
It is my belief that waterboarding is justified but it is a decision that only POTUS can make because it does have strategic consequences that have been described here. It’s use has to be weighed against the potential value of the information in the context of the possible harm that could be caused if the information is not extracted. Waterboarding is horribly uncomfortable but it causes no long term physical harm and, in my opinion, is the most mild form of what is considered “torture.” Personally, I’d have difficulty agreeing with anything beyond waterboarding, but then my own logic could be used against me, “Are not their lives worth more than that prisoner’s pain?” and that is where the slippery slope gets even slipperier.
United Nations? Are they still around? Haven’t heard anything from them in years. Maybe our checks are being cashed and the money is being stashed in someone’s personal bit coin account.
Why not mention the two most important facts:
1. Torture is ineffective — when tortured, people say whatever the torturer wants to hear, regardless of truth
2. Nations pretending to be “good” lose credibility – When you torture people, you and your white get dirty. People stop believing your diplomats & soldiers, placing all at risk.
I guess you didn’t read the article. As far as diplomats and soldiers being at risk – try logic with that one.
I guess I did read it. Saying “degree of uncertainty” is like saying “a little pregnant.” And as to risk overseas, I’ve been on active duty in foreign countries when the locals react negatively to the US. So I would call that logic AND experience.
BTW thanks for taking a moment to consider that you might gain something from examining the merits of my point. You’re a real thinker and a great American. Considered responses like yours guarantee we will never elect leaders who would do really stupid things, like close our borders to the nation’s that DIDN’T take part in 911, or tweet about Christians at ris overseas and then close US borders to them, or who would move the Chairman of the JCS (whose sole role is to advise the President) off if the NSC so he can swap in the boss of Breitbart.
Oh wait. All three of those just happened.
Why all all the talk about torture? Are we taking prisoners somewhere? However, we are at war now to get affordable healthcare and to get our jobs back. We are at war now to stop illegals from coming into this country. We are at war now with a sick, defiant, lame brain, incompetent, establishment/Wall St. owned media.
A classic case of media trying to control the government agenda. This country did fine before our jobs went to Communist nest China, and we actually deported illegal immigrants.
Trump is the one talking about it. Ask him.
He has answered over and over, the crooked media people you feed won’t let it go. How many times does Trump have to tell you before it gets through?
We can see now the Wall St. owed media trying to maintain its control of the agenda of our government.
Dear Christians who are ProLife:
The Baby Jesus of Nazareth was born into a world of torture. The Roman civil authorities enforced their economic, social, and cultural power by force of torture. Many horrible kinds, including crucifixion. The Baby Jesus fled – as a refugee – into Egypt to escape the terrorism of the Jewish civil authorities in Palestine. Mr Trump has endorsed torture. And he has endorsed turning back refugees, including children. Trump’s dictates would BAN the Baby Jesus! Trump’s dictates would ENDORSE torture, perhaps even crucifixion of a sort, because he believe more torture is better.
We don’t know who is Mr Trump’s Master. We don’t know yet who is his Master, do we? We would know more if he released ‘his papers’ – his taxes! But instead of releasing ‘his papers’ he refuses welcome to children fleeing terrorism, like the Baby Jesus. Instead of releasing ‘his papers’ endorses torture, perhaps even crucifixion, because he has never told us what are the limits of torture.
Trump could be a Satanic Lord, for all we know.
Unlike you, Trump is a Christian who values Christianity. You have consistently avoided discussing the vicious anti-Christian genocide being practiced by mid-east Muslims. Jesus knew people like you and he told his followers to avoid them as they would poison his teachings.
I will gladly meet you and others to discuss Biblical values – in a public forum, including a spectrum of Christian believers – at an agreeable time.
In the meantime, we see that you have failed to discuss the Biblical historical facts:
1. that Jesus was a refugee.
Jesus the Lord would of course remember well that he was a refugee and that his dear mother and father were refugees, and that his extended Jewish family had been refugees many many times through a long history; and that Jesus gave us direct instruction about how to treat refugees.
2. that Jesus was tortured by civil authorities.
Jesus the Lord would of course remember well that he was tortures and that his family and friends were also victimized by torture. And the Lord Jesus Christ would know that many of his disciples, apostles, and followers were tortured … not by Muslims but by White European Romans. And that many of his followers throughout history were tortured by other Christians.
Actually, Islam arose some 500 years after the death of Jesus. I note you resort to racism forgetting that Muslims aren’t a race but members of an ideology. Torture was used by every nation in the world so you can skip the moralizing. Today, torture is banned in civilized nations but not by Muslim jihadists. And, as Jindal said quite eloquently, refugees who want to assimilate are refugees. Refugees who don’t want to assimilate are invaders. All you have to do is look at modern Europe – France has 750 Muslim no go zones. Sweden has said 50. Germany is swamped by merkels national suicidal mistake.
The logical line of your ideological-political argument intersects with practicality at one point: ‘assimilation’. Please define what you believe to be ‘assimilation’ … or better yet, a Constitutionally defensible idea of what ‘assimilation’ is. I am all about Constitutional practicality. I am not ideological. Be practical please and share what you believe would be a Constitutionally defensible definition of ‘assimilation’ which you claim to be the differential between acceptable refugees and un-acceptable invaders.
If you don’t know the difference between someone who comes here to be an American and someone who comes here to undermine America, I can’t help you.
So that is your definition of ‘assimilation’. So, should Wall Street bankers who caused financial distress on millions of Americans be deported? What about polluters who cause cancers, asthma and other illness in thousands of Americans?
The most amazing thing for me is that the radical right posters here still support your decision in Trump. You folks are scary
That is because, as a radical leftist, you don’t support the idea that nations are important. You somehow believe that socialist one world government totalitarianism is perfectly acceptable and even better than constitutional individual rights and freedoms. The ideological connections and consequences of socialism and Islam are completely lost on you.
You have no idea what I support. You are simply projecting your own beliefs on others. I stand for logic and quantifiable decisions and the constitution, for limited gov’t, especially as it applies to private lives, for reduced gov’t spending, – something apparently lost on you.
You seem to change what you support at the drop of a hat. If only you stood for facts and logic, you and I would be on the same page.
I have never waivered – unfortunatley, the GOP never waivers either. Look at your support for Trump and the Muslim ban. Unfortunately for us all, the purpose of the ban seems to be only for Trump to say he has done something, but not in anyway connected to protecting US from the folks who don’t like us. Actually, it seems to be connected to Trump’s business interests more than anything else
http://wpo.st/T_2X2
He is banning individuals from terrorist involved nations and for a shorter period than Obama did with Iraqis. Frankly, I think Islam should be banned because I see what muslim invaders are doing to destroy Western Europe on a daily basis.
As far as protecting us, obama did nothing but stir up the Muslims in the mid-east. Now we have to try to defend ourselves. If you were half as logical as you claim, you would see that Germany’s open borders are literally destroying that country while Hungary’s closed border policy is working quite well.
If you opened your eyes, you would see this is simply a maneuver to aid Trump’s businesses. Nothing more
What a stupid comment.
Ok, torture is bad, it’s hell. War is very bad too, and it’s hell to a lot of people.
We are in a war here against a barbaric enemy – Muslims following their Koran’s edicts for world domination. Make no mistake, that is there game plan and the stupid, self-hating countries who welcome in all those Syrian Muslim refugees are bringing in their warriors in the Trojan Horse.
Winston Churchill said it best (about war) – we will do whatever it takes to win. If that includes torture, so be it.
You obviously have no idea what war is. Care to share with us the conspiracy websites you follow?
It appears that the Canadian mosque attack was Muslim on Muslim. The leadership of the mosque was in conflict with previous members who strongly opposed moderation. The names of the attackers, which have not been officially released, are both Islamic. Unreported by numerous MSM is that the attackers yelled the infamous phrase “Allahu Akbar” while shooting.
What you do not appreciate is that war isn’t just fought one way. There are many types but the best idea is to win. Appeasement hasn’t worked and surrender is too horrific to contemplate if you are an infidel.
The President is evolving. The President said ; “I will listen to my Generals”
General Mattis said; Give a couple of beers and a cigarette and I’ll get you anything you need yo know.
Humor here;
The problem with that is Dems may
desire to tax those beers and cigarettes if they come from a base commissary.
We the general public should not be discussing shoulda , coulda , and wouldas. Frankly it is irresponsible and a threat to those who and now are still serving in this war on terror, one of them being mine.
Illegal immigration is economic terrorism. Let’s talk about Va Republicans that give aid and comfort to the enemy in the illegal immigration
battle, or are you fearful of the cost of ending that war?
It is not just economic terrorism but cultural terrorism as well. Why is the left so bent on destroying western culture in western nations? My guess is totalitarian socialists across the globe wish to eliminate nations and replace them with a one world government where citizens are reduce to serfs.
The Dems goal is one Global Nation through stealth socialism.
The Republicans reason is pure jealously or the American Employer/worker who actually never once could not find Americans to work.
One of the keys to creating a successful business is hiring, training, and termination.
Republicans want to be part of the very lucrative construction industry without the challenges that foster success in building.